From Layoff to Startup Necessity

Speaker 1 0:00

Have you ever started a business and wondered how you're going to get it all done ? Some of you have a partner , maybe you don't . In this episode , I'm going to talk to the guys from HW Contracting , talking about the early years when they got laid off from their job and then they had to start a new thing . They had to endeavor this entrepreneurial effort and never done it before . They created a partnership , which is also really difficult . So we talk about all the nitty gritty , the things that work , the things that differ did it , and how they have not just survived but thrived over the last 15 years , and done that with families and all the other things that go along with life . Without any further ado , here's my interview with the guys from HW Contracting . Hey guys , welcome to the show . Hey .

Speaker 2 0:38

Richard , hey , how's it going man ?

Speaker 1 0:39

So we've known each other for a long time . I don't even know how long we've known each other for a long time , I don't even know how long , how long you and I go back to middle school .

Speaker 1 0:45

That's true , that's a very long time . I'd like to not admit how long it was . I just did a podcast a little while ago with a guy who was 85 and he kept calling me a young man and I was like I appreciate that because it's not how I always feel , but y'all have been in business together for how long ? When did people start the business ? There's a lot of risk involved . It's like I'm leaving something and something will leap . Some people it's like they , they , they lost a job or they had major life change like let's just try this new thing . And some people are just like well , I don't know , we got this dream , was tried out . So what was y'all's kind of origin story in that process ?

Speaker 3 1:23

This was not a dream , it was a necessity . We both got laid off from the same company . We worked for a large multifamily builder in Jacksonville up and down the southeast here , and the economy tanked in the early 2000s and we were casualty with that , and so it was a choice to get out of construction , find a career in something else that was available or start a business and hopefully by the time the economy rebounded we had a successful business or a stable business .

Speaker 1 1:49

Now , did either of y'all ever run a business before that ?

Speaker 3 1:51

No .

Speaker 1 1:52

No , so this was the first time and you know this far along that Elizabeth seemed to have swam .

Speaker 2 1:57

We didn't want to retool . Neither of us wanted to go back to school , learn something different . We enjoyed what we were doing in construction and the type of work we were doing qualified us to get our general contractor's license , which in the tiers of contractor licenses that was at the top . So we were both able to get that license and that allows us to do any type of construction and unlimited scope of construction .

Speaker 1 2:21

So , when you started the business I know now you focus a ton on roofing , but when you started the business , what was the focus of the things that you were doing ? Was it anything and everything that you could get your hands on ? Or what was the ? What did you decide ? This is what we're going to do .

Speaker 3 2:32

First couple of years , yeah , it was anything that would pay the bills , but the idea was custom builder , custom remodel . That was the goal and only it started working our way to that . But yeah , the first year or two was Whoever had something , it would pay .

Speaker 2 2:47

We got a call one weekend . Somebody needed shipping crates built and they had a budget and they told us what it was and we said yeah we'll do that . Built shipping crates . Our first job was wood rot siding repair . I think was our first job and the dream was , like Peter said , custom homes , custom remodels , that we got into commercial build outs , you know , helped you guys build out your space and , yeah , that's what we thought we were going to do .

Speaker 1 3:12

Our dream was to build , you know , stuff that you see in magazines and that was the the direction we were going so talk about , you know , those early years , especially people you know glamorize entrepreneurship , the business ownership , as this , like you're gonna have freedom and you're gonna have money and you're gonna have purpose , and I find a lot of times you actually end up with none of them in the early years . You don't have any money and you don't have any freedom and you don't really know what your purpose is .

Speaker 2 3:36

Yeah , there's I'm not gonna say there's nothing glamorous about it . It gets better if you , if you stick with it , but in the early years there was nothing glamorous . I mean , you know they say blend sweat and tears , arguing vehemently uh , with a , we got a , we're partners , yeah , so it's like like a marriage and and kind of fleshing things out and stuff like that . You know , not making enough money , what are we going to do ? Arguing about that ? It is not pretty . Should you go back and work for somebody ?

Speaker 3 4:07

else .

Speaker 2 4:07

Yeah , do berserker . Bad decision and at one point we were offered our old jobs back . That company came out of the recession and they actually came out really well . They're a great company . They did offer the jobs back and we decided to stick with it , which I think it's like as far as entrepreneurship goes . We can talk more about this , if you want to later . Sticking with it is the hard part , but if you stick with it and you do it right , there is more happiness on the other side .

Speaker 1 4:35

Yeah , I mean that's true for both of our stories . I mean I remember plenty of years where I just thought , oh , now we're going to make this work , and that was without the stress of a partner . But I think partnership's interesting because , well , dave Ramsey always says partnerships sink ships . But you know , we all admit it , we're the rarities . They say it . But at the same time there is also a little bit of like . I would think I'm just guessing , because I've never had a partner like a shared burden . You know where it's like . At least at least you're not the only one who knows what the pain is that you're currently enduring , enduring where nobody else , when you run it solo , nobody else really knows what you're actually going to do .

Speaker 3 5:11

I think there's a lot to that . If either one of us had to do it by ourselves , I think we'd probably shut it down and go work somewhere else . Maybe not now that we've got an established company , but the beginning , I tell you , when you , when they offers our jobs back , we like talk to each other . I was like , if you go , I got to go , or vice versa . I'm not going to do this by myself . Because of that same shared burdens , shared experience . We're fortunate that we actually can do each other's job , but we actually thrive until he suffers fears that he does one thing and that's kind of his lane and I do the other things so talk about that , and how long did it take you identify the fact that you do do different things better in your own leagues ?

Speaker 3 5:51

I think early audits kind of blended we worked together for four years prior to starting our company , so we already knew each other pretty well . So it didn't take a terribly long time to start flushing out the lanes , but I maybe the first four or five years we did probably have some overlap and some toe stepping and things which caused some headaches along the way when we switched to do as just roofing , it got really clarified .

Speaker 2 6:15

I run the field , peter runs the back office . But to your point earlier about entrepreneurs and maybe it being a little easier if you have a partner , in some ways it is . It's not as lonely . I think entrepreneurship can be very lonely when you have a partner . It's not quite as lonely . You have someone that you can go to and even now if I'm having a problem in the field , I call them . Hey , here's the problem we're having . It's going to cost us some money . How do you think we should work this out ? So there's some benefits to that .

Speaker 1 6:45

Right , yeah , because for me , you know , having never had a partner , I would argue that my wife is kind of like my partner , but she's , I mean , she is certainly in life but she's not in the business because she doesn't have any context for whatever I tell her . You know what I'm saying , and so . But it was interesting because you kind of compared partnerships to marriage because there's a little bit of that , but . So , but it was interesting because you kind of compared partnerships to marriage because there's a little bit of that , but then you're also also married . You know , not each other , obviously , but , and so there's all these dynamics going on .

Speaker 1 7:11

There's real marriage , there's kids , there's business . There's a stress that actually having to make enough money to , you know , not just pay , because the other thing is there's two of you , so you've got to . Basically business has got to produce twice as much . You know , even in the early days it's being enough to even just keep your life to your own houses Versus . For me at least , I just had to do my own thing make enough for one person for a while , then that's good enough . You know one family . So talk about that dynamic , a little bit of like the at home life and how that overflows with the business life and kind of things that have gone well , maybe even some things that haven't .

Speaker 2 7:44

So for a majority of the time I have not brought the work stuff home to my wife with like vent to her and stuff like that . I don't know if it's good . I think that I think in a lot of ways it's good .

Speaker 1 7:56

Yeah .

Speaker 2 7:57

I've started to talk to her more recently about things and I think I probably should have been doing that more along the way . What I didn't want to do is bring the crap home and burden her with that . So I internalize a lot of that and maybe there's some pros and some cons with that . I've started to kind of let her in more on those things recently and now

Early Years of Entrepreneurship Struggles

Speaker 2 8:20

actually she's her , Our wives are actually employees of the company , so I've got her working on a few projects and stuff like that . So early on I internalized a lot of it . Maybe shouldn't have , but I didn't want to bring a bunch of work crap home .

Speaker 1 8:38

Well , it's interesting because a lot of people say you shouldn't do that , you shouldn't bring work crap home , basically , and I'm an external processor so it's very hard for me to hold things in , and if I do , it doesn't last very long and it usually explodes . So claren generally has like heard all the things all along . The danger is , I think , when you at least for me , historically , when I've only shared the negative things , especially about when there's people problems , and then she's like , well , I don't know why that person still works here , like just fire them . I'm like , babe , it's not that easy , there's a lot of other things involved . She's like , I know , but you're always complaining about them and I'm like what's ?

Speaker 1 9:09

your problem Sometimes . I usually see it as it takes me long enough to figure it out , or as a reminder that sometimes there right . So I wonder about I mean , how has that worked out for both of y'all ?

Speaker 3 9:27

So for me my wife and I . We've always shared . She worked up until recently . Within the last year she had a job , so she would come home and tell me her headaches and her tale of the headaches . And I mean it caused problems at times , but mainly because just us as people humans , you know we sometimes say something and then causes an argument over something , but then we just had to work it out . But we never really had a problem sharing .

Speaker 1 9:54

And if it caused problems we just figured it out Like all right well , maybe you didn't do as well together in business partnership in the early years , that maybe you have learned over 15 years that you do a little bit better job of now . What are some of ?

Speaker 2 10:16

those like things that maybe didn't go well in early years that you've now kind of learned how to do better . I mean , I think communicate a lot of it boils down to communication and identifying the lanes that you're going to work in . When there was overlap , I think there was probably the most problems and then you know kind of deciding . They are , you know , caleb's going to be , you know kind of the operations side of the business and Peter's going to be running all the admin side , the back end side , insurance , contract payments , all financials , all that stuff you know , and they very rarely crossed these days . In the early days they crossed a lot and we weren't making enough money and that causes more problems .

Speaker 2 10:52

But I think maybe just not having clear , clearly communicated roles and responsibilities probably led to a lot of grief in the early years . We had to hire a consultant to help us iron out like a meteor . She was like a combination of a therapist , a business coach , a psychologist , and got in a room and literally argued it out and she helped us work . Sometimes you have to work .

Speaker 3 11:18

Yeah , I think it's establishing those lanes and eventually we just kind of it took us a few years to spray that but we finally worked through and had those lanes . Like I said , we both can step in and help the other one do things when they're traveling or need , but you still have kind of like yeah , I would say it's like everything can't be everybody's responsibility , right , and the example it's even when you with team members .

Speaker 1 11:41

You know , one of my biggest pet peeves is when people take a task and assign it to multiple people and I'm like you can't do that . You can't do that . In the same way that you can't tell , you can't say hey , kids go unload the dishwasher . And I'm like who's going to unload the dishwasher ? When I say that , the answer is no , no one's going to do it . Why ? Because of it . I thought she was going to do it , but it's for her day . Well , I did it yesterday and arguably , us as adults aren't that much different than kids , like nine times out of ten , and I don't think we should treat our employees like they're our children . That's not the same thing . But as people , that is kind of the same outcome and I'm always like , regardless of how high up an organization is , even at a true partnership level , I think knowing like what are my key responsibilities ? What are the things that , if I won't do anything else this week , what are the three to five things that I have to do to keep this thing going ?

Speaker 2 12:30

Yeah , for sure , and I think what I think about is , as we grow , as we've gotten bigger , the dollars get bigger , the responsibilities get bigger and we start doing more projects . Identifying what I don't think we've done a great job of is like identifying a key . Who's going to run this segment , and that's probably something I think we need to get better at is all right , this is your responsibility . You're going to run this , and if you need my help , let me know and whether it's he and I , or assigning the team member to do that and then making them responsible for it and then just following up . I think , as you get on in business , those roles have to be more and more clear , more and more defined . Yeah , like you said , if you tell two people to go do it , it's probably not going to get done .

Speaker 1 13:12

Well , even like for Chris and I I mean , we've been working together for as long as y'all have actually for 15 years 15th year , which is crazy and while we're not technically partners on paper still operates a lot like that . You know , and I know for me like my job in general is care for vision and culture , speak on stages , which includes stuff like this , and keep money in the bank , and if I'm doing those three things , then I'm doing my job . And he's got a whole list of a few things care for clients , care for the team and go sell new things . You know , if he's doing those three things , he's doing his job for the team and go sell new things . If he's doing those three things , he's doing his job . That said , either one of us could do the other person's role on any given Sunday if we needed to , and we're happy to . I want him to go have a vacation and be with his family and hang out and not have to worry about answering his emails and phone , and vice versa .

Speaker 1 14:02

I want to have that backup because I think a lot of people neglect that in business , especially solopreneurs . They don't have that like backup , because I spent gosh probably a decade , you know where . I had no backup . I had no . Well , while I destroyed it in any way to fight with , I also had nobody to like go . Hey , can you just handle this while I'll take a break for a minute . You know what ?

Speaker 2 14:23

I mean , I think trust is the other thing . Like we talked about , like if you don't have trust or someone has violated the trust , that's where I think partnerships really start to break down . I trust Peter intimately , like our families are friends , Like I don't have to worry about the financial side of the business because I trust that he's making the right decisions . And even if there was a wrong decision , like , hey , all right , you know you made it , let's talk about how we're going to do something different next time . Same thing with the field . Hey , that may be a bad call , but we haven't violated trust . And I think that is the key component . If you don't trust your partner or your key guy , that is going to lead to a lot of heartaches .

Speaker 3 15:06

That's why a lot of entrepreneurship partnerships fail , I mean we both know the other one's going to do what is right and what's best , Not only for the customer , for the company . Sure , Because we follow . You know we have an ethos , we have a moral guy . You know we're both Christians and we both are very strong and we're like what's the right thing to do ? Whether it's going to cost us a lot of money or not , what's the right thing to do and that's what we try to make all of our decisions on is , at the end of the day , if we do the right thing , it's not going to sink my battleship .

Speaker 3 15:38

One wrong thing that might cost me even 10,000 bucks . We had a brief leak and the right thing was to fix something . Guy's like how much is it going to cost you ? I was like man , I don't know . I was like I don't know , we're going to fix it and I'll tally it in . We'll figure out what we can do better next time . That's right . You learned some good lessons , though , with an $8 seven years ago , and here we are still three times the size of the company . So we just we do the right thing and that's how we make our decisions

Defining Partnership Roles and Responsibilities

Speaker 3 16:10

.

Speaker 2 16:10

You generally can't be wrong if you're doing the right thing for the customer . Yeah , you know we could talk about maybe there was multiple right ways to handle it and maybe we would prefer if you'd done a different way . But you can't fall . I tell my team the same thing . If you can't get ahold of me if I'm in a meeting , I'm in a podcast , phone's off . Sure At your . Your default is just do the best thing for the customer and I can't be mad at you , right ?

Speaker 2 16:35

Maybe , maybe I would have gone about these situations , Just like I can't be now . We can maybe talk about a different way . Now we can maybe talk about a different way . We could have done it . Maybe that would have cost us less money or something like that , but I'll never fault you for doing what you thought was best for the customer .

Speaker 1 16:50

Well , I always say too , I believe that part of a leader's responsibility of a team is to create a space where people have the opportunity to fail , just not fail catastrophically .

Speaker 1 17:01

I don't want them to destroy themselves , I don't want them to destroy the business , but there's very few things that will actually do that . There are some and I want to put some guardrails on to protect from those things . But in general and again not to make the kid analogy again , but it's kind of like kids too it's like , as kids grow up , you're going to let that rope out a little bit because they're going to have to go figure it out on their own one day , and it's in my best interest as a leader for my teams to be able to function without me . I think one of the mistakes that tons of small businesses make especially is that the owner just is completely unwilling to even let the rope out a little bit on people and they just want to control so much and then they're stressed out , worn out , ready to quit because they work 80 plus hours a week and have no other way to do it because they're not willing to let their team make some mistakes .

Speaker 3 17:45

So that's why I was not answering the phone , just not itching to call . If I'm in is to figure it out , and then you call back in 30 , 40 minutes . Hey , what'd you need ? I figured it Exactly . It's the best . What was your solution ? And then usually it's a good one or you say hey , that was a great , here's another option next time .

Speaker 2 18:02

I might've done this , yeah , so what I'm trying to do right now . So me and my family are taking a trick out West in June . We're going to do similar to what you did . I don't remember if you stayed connected during that month . Hell does . You did not . Okay , so I'm going to stay connected . Yeah , I'm going to run my portion of the business remotely while we RV out West , similar to what you did .

Speaker 2 18:21

So what I'm trying to teach the team that kind of works directly under me is my thought process , how I process problems . Really , our job in construction , everything's a fire and our job is problem solving . Every day , for sure , every day of the week , we're problem solving . So I'm trying to teach them , not the what , I'm trying to teach them the why , why I think through things the way that I do , so that they can learn my thought process . And if they understand my thought process , hopefully they end up with where I would have ended up . So I'm not teaching the what as much as I'm teaching .

Speaker 2 18:59

Here's the why I came to this decision and I'm actually , when they call me with a problem , instead of me solving the problem right now , I'm saying okay , I know the answer to this . What is your answer ? 100 . Walk me through what is your answer . And when that doesn't work , what's your next thing ? And make them walk through . That . That's what I'm trying to do now , instead of solving every problem , because if , if they know you'll solve every problem , they'll just call you every time absolutely .

Speaker 1 19:21

Yeah , I think that's a great example is the best thing to ask somebody when they bring your a problem is well , what are you going to do about that and what's your solution ?

Speaker 3 19:29

What do you think ?

Speaker 1 19:30

we should do , and I always tell people too . One of the things I've learned is my instinct in the early years would be like don't do that , do this instead . I actually , if I think I have a better idea , but their idea is not a horrible one , I would almost rather them do their idea and I'm like let's just see what happens , because , number one , it might actually be better than my idea . Number one . Number two you know , it's like if I'm constantly having to correct them , they might not want to bring me a suggestion and I would rather so . I tell people all the time like don't .

Speaker 1 20:04

Number one , don't bring me a problem without a potential solution . And number two I've heard of the analogy is like well , somebody brings a monkey into your office . They take it back out with them . You know the monkey's the problem . So like don't leave your monkey in my office , don't put a hand grenade in and shut the door's . Good as a whole , not just for me , because they then become more valuable , not just for the company but for themselves , and so I have the opportunity to pay them more because they're going to take on more , which means the company could take on more .

Speaker 2 20:36

Yeah , it's not for that as well . Through that process , I've had a few instances where I ask them hey , what's your plan ? How would you solve this ? And they come up with an idea that I hadn't thought of . That was actually better than my idea 100% . That's when I'm like , okay , we're winning . Now You're bringing me ideas that I hadn't thought of , so , thank you , keep doing that .

Speaker 1 20:57

Yeah , I mean , when you get the right people in the right seats , that's what they do , you know . I mean there's plenty of people on our team now that are so elite compared to even me in the early days , like Natalie who helps run your accounts . She's freaking sharp . I mean that girl is so smart . I don't want to denigrate anybody else in the office , including myself , but she's probably the smartest one in the office . Her brain just works really good and she's able to come up with ideas and she'll bring stuff up the table and I'll be like , oh , I've not even thought of that . Like that's a whole different level of where we're . You know where we're going . And then you start to get start to see how companies really scale beyond the founder . In fact , a lot of companies don't see their like most exponential growth until the original founders replaced I think about this this with , like Bozard Ford , for example . Bozard and Lenny are good friends of ours , clients and Bo's grandfather started Bozard Ford . I think his grandfather yeah .

Speaker 1 21:57

The original location was right there in St Augustine , off the main drag , there right that small little oh yeah , but if you look at the transition , even from Bo's dad to him , him and Letty have exponentially grown it to a different level . It's incredible . You know from wherever it was in the country . Yeah , it's crazy , but but but he has done it from a different level of leadership and growth and fall than probably his dad or granddad ever could have . You know , and sometimes like getting the right people and helps a company grow beyond them Sometimes .

Speaker 3 22:28

I heard somewhere that it could have been a Dave Ramsey thing . It could have been in any one of those leadership things that sometimes a company's limiting factor is the boss or the owner . A hundred percent is their capacity to handle .

Speaker 1 22:41

Yeah , you call it the leadership lid . I mean , whoever the leader is is the limiting factor on the business , and sometimes the best thing you can do is actually get out of the way or increase your own capacity and knowledge .

Speaker 3 22:50

Yeah , so one thing I think we're trying to do better now is create a team that , because we're in a no delusion of him and I left , now the company stops For sure . So we're trying to create a company that that's not the case . And you know , we've got a five to 10 year plan where we want a company that actually could run without our direct input on a day to basis , and part of that , I think , is we're lucky , we're in a male dominated kind of industry . We have a couple girls that work with us and we could be pretty straightforward with it , sure , and so when I , when they come to me with their things , I just tell them like , look , solve the problem . It's like I pay you to solve the problem , solve the problem . It's like I pay you to solve the problem , solve the problem . And as long as you don't do these things , I'll probably live with it . We'll go over it , we'll see if there was a better solution , but just solve it . Yeah , that's what I need you to do .

Speaker 1 23:36

For sure . So you all have done a lot of transition over the years you talked about when you started . You did all kinds of things . Whatever will pay the bills , so most of it comes screwing some light bulbs . I'll come screwing light bulbs if I need to and then put some money in the bank . But now you've really narrowed that focus . You're like okay , now we're focused on roofing . So what was that transition like of going identifying the products or services , if you will , that you are best at , that , you're most profitable at that you like the most , whatever it may be ? How have you learned to narrow the company down ? Because I see that a lot with a lot of companies over time is they start to narrow their focus when they find what works really well .

Speaker 3 24:14

So we had to learn the word no . That was very tough . When you know him and I , we came from the do side of construction . We were like you said . Neither one of us wanted to own a business . I think we might have it passed through our mind that we were kind of forced into it . And here we are , like we knew how to do this stuff . So it's hard to not go do it , sure Right , and to say no one in the beginning for him and I say no if , if it requires me to lift a hammer , then I'm going backwards . So that was the first step and first step . And then , as we started adding people , they knew we had the ability or that we came from certain types of construction and learning and teaching them . No , we have to say no because we are only going to focus on this thing called roofing , because if we try to be everything to everybody , we're just going to go backwards .

Speaker 2 24:58

We were failing miserably at trying to be everything to everybody . We were doing commercial build outs , we're doing custom remodels , we're trying to do new construction and we had our first new construction ground-up house and we kind of stumbled into roofing A good friend of mine from church . I was remodeling their kitchen and it went really well . Good project , so let's say it was $60,000 kitchen At the end of it . He was in the roofing business on the distribution side and he actually be great for your podcast . He's an amazing guy .

Speaker 2 25:31

He started coming to me saying if you can sell a $60,000 kitchen , you can sell a 15 , $20,000 roof . And I'm like man . I literally said I will never be a greasy roofer , never . And he he pounded on me for over a year , year and a half , and I can't remember what the catalyst was . We were having a bad remodel , the remodel was going badly and we were having multiple bad jobs . As we were trying to grow , we were trying to bring people in to manage our jobs . Peter and I weren't on the job every day anymore . We were losing control and neither one of us were happy about that . Customers aren't happy , we're burning relationships and I said , all right , I'm going to dip my toe , leasing money .

Speaker 3 26:13

We're bleeding money To make it to stop . We're like what it takes to fix it .

Speaker 2 26:17

Yeah , I said I'm going to dip my toe into this reefing water and just see what it's about . And I think right about then Hurricane Matthew hit . So that was a big boost . And literally one day when Peter and I were in the office , we were in one room together . We were basically sitting side by side . Sure , peter said where's this cash flow coming from ? So I think that's the roots man . And he said we should do more of that . So then we were going to do both , yeah , sure , and brought a guy in to kind of run the roofing division and that went horribly bad , poor stuff for us , and we made a horrible deal with him , like he was going to get a huge cut .

Speaker 2 26:58

I'm kind of glad he flaked . We have like an up-offit sharing thing and it went really south and it forced me to get into the roofing side of our business hands-on sure so now I'm out selling

Narrowing Focus to Roofing Business

Speaker 2 27:10

roofs , I'm managing the installs I'm , you know , from ground up , you know and I took over all the construction stuff from ground up execution up , estimating and running the accounting .

Speaker 3 27:22

so while we were doing that , the roofs just kept growing and the money just kept and I kept looking at how long it took us to get to the dollars of the other jobs . I'm like faster turnaround . I was like do you want to do this anymore ? And he's like I don't really want to . And I was like I really don't want to run another construction job . I was like what if we just did roofing ? And another thing you heard through the grapevine a long time ago . Someone said pick something , get good at it , pick one thing and get really good at it .

Speaker 2 27:51

That's why we've done that and we've built all these new roofs . Yeah , and you know you could make an argument that there's always construction , but you know , set all that aside with a roof . Here's what did it for me . Okay , typical bathroom remodel , let's say master bathroom remodel . Let's say , you know , full thing , gut and redo , reshape all that . Let's say it's $20,000 . We were doing a $20,000 roof in one day . That $20,000 bathroom remodel would take six weeks . It was a painful six weeks . We're in the customer's house and there's dust everywhere . And even though you told them dust is going to be everywhere , they complained that dust is everywhere . We've flooded a couple houses .

Speaker 3 28:30

About six weeks on site , not counting the pre sure .

Speaker 2 28:34

Yeah , it's weeks , so we were turning that $20,000 over every day . Yeah , and let's just assume profit margins are the same . They're close . Why were we doing the remodeling ? Doesn't make any sense . It doesn't make any sense . So we went just said one day we're gonna stop doing it . And people would keep calling us hey , I need this remodel done . No , we had learned that hard work .

Speaker 3 28:53

No in the beginning we were felt get bad previous customers or referral . Like gosh , are we just ?

Speaker 2 28:59

yes , then you're afraid you're losing money , you're afraid you're giving up money . So I got the money . Y'all hire you whatever you want and you're . And it was so hard to turn that money down at first , but it was the most empowering , freeing thing we ever did was say no , because now , with roofing , we have one material vendor , we have a dumpster vendor and we have a crew . That's it . When you're a GC , you have 20 vendors .

Speaker 1 29:23

No doubt .

Speaker 2 29:24

You're in the customer's house , Everything's going awry . You know it can be done well . We just weren't doing it well .

Speaker 1 29:30

You , everything's going awry . You know it can be done . Well , we just weren't doing it . Well , you know , there's two things specifically said that I think really stand out . One is learn the word no . Somebody told me one time this is really that a big impact on me . They said , because I'm a yes guy too , I like this . But yeah , we'll figure it out , we'll do it , no problem . Well , you've never learned how to do it , we'll figure it out . And they said every time you say yes to one thing , you're saying no to a thousand others . And I was like oh .

Speaker 1 29:54

I hate saying no , and saying yes actually means saying no , because you can't actually do everything . There's only so many hours a day on the seven days in a week and so you do have to decide like what am I uniquely suited for and , from a business perspective , what keeps the money in the bank ? What has good cash flow ? What has good profitability ? What are we good at ? What creates good systemization ?

Speaker 1 30:16

All that , in other words , like hammer on the job , is actually sometimes a limiting factor If you want to be by . That is it's like you know I I wear a lot of different hats and one of them I get to work at the church of 1122 and help with all kinds of things marketing , communication , strategy , media , all kinds of stuff and my boss there , who's the first boss I've ever had , ironically my whole life was talking about something I was like well , I can just do it if I need to . And he's like , no , don't let people know you can do that . And he meant it from a perspective of I need you to lead the thing , I don't need you to do the thing , and those are very different things and that's very hard for me because I do actually a jack of all trades , master of none .

Speaker 1 31:11

I'm not the person that should be designing the thing , even if I can do that better than most regular people . I'm not the person that should be toting the thing , even if I can do it better than most regular people , because I'm not as good as the person who's the expert at it and really does it well , and I've had to learn both of those things really big , with people that are listening . Those are good lessons to take away . Learn to say no to the right things . Learn to say yes to the right things . Know when you say yes , you say no to a thousand others , and sometimes the ability to do the thing is actually a limiting factor . It's also helpful , I mean , because you know what it should be and what it isn't .

Speaker 2 31:42

Yeah , I think one of the most dangerous things you can say is I'll just do that . Yeah , just do that . And anytime I catch myself in the field doing something , I regret it For almost exclusive a hundred percent , a hundred percent regret . Like why am I here ? This is a waste of my time . I could have paid someone to do this and saved a ton of time . So my , my goal is to always solve a problem without me being the solution to that problem , like find other ways to do whatever that task is that needs to be done , that sure I could go solve it , but it's going to take me three or four hours , I'm going to be hot and sweaty , I'm going to be pissed off . Who can I get to go do this ? And every time I end up going to do it , I'm upset with myself , and when I get someone else to do it , I am so relieved that I did 100% .

Speaker 1 32:28

I read this book not that long ago by a guy named Dan Sullivan , called who , not how , and it makes me think about what you're talking about there , which is a lot of times we think how am I going to get this thing done ? But the right question to ask , especially as a leader , is who can help me get this thing done ? And I've definitely been , I still do . I mean , 26 years later I still . I'm like well , let me just do it . But I also think from a team member's perspective , if you hear your leader or your boss say I'll just do it , that's like the worst thing they could say to you . Like if I say to somebody , it's like the insult just give it to me , I'll do it . What I mean is you're clearly not getting it done , so and I'm not , I'm not bothered by it , like I can carry more , give it to me . And that's not good . It's also moderately arrogant as the leader to just make that assumption and it's better to just let people do their jobs .

Speaker 1 33:15

I read this other book I forgot what it was called but one thing that stood out to me they were really talking about kids , but I think it relates to team members too , and they said one of the worst things you can do for a child member is to take their task . In other words , if it's something that they should do , you should let them do it , and I think that's true for team members as much as it is kids . Which is let them do it . It might be a little slower , it might not be exactly what you'd hoped for , but the only way they can learn , which is the only way they can get better , which is the only way the company can get better , yeah , more reps .

Speaker 1 34:03

For sure , keep doing . My , told a guy on the way here , one of our sales guys . Yes , quote it , it's more reps . The more reps you do , the easier this is going to get for in the business that maybe isn't there yet , that you're working towards . Like , what is the thing now that you're working towards , that you kind of hope for for the future ?

Speaker 3 34:17

I think for me and I think for KO2 , our conversations , that company that can run itself without my hour-by-hour direct input , all day , 40 hours a week . I think I heard it for you I want to get to a point where I want to be 20% in the business and then take 80% and be working on other special projects like working for the church or going on mission trips or doing some other impactful things , like getting more involved with the Builders Care Association that I'm on the board of and he's the president of the NRFSA up here in the Northeast border area , being more involved in some of those things that I think could just be more or help be fulfilling .

Speaker 2 35:02

Yeah , and I've been re-homing that we need to grow the business and not be as critical to the day-to-day grind , empowering other people to do the things that we do on a day-to-day basis . I think that's the next step for great , I think . I think right now we are probably the limiting factors , for sure , and we have to get comfortable getting out of that , and it's probably it'll probably mean hiring someone in , so then that that year it's a financial thing . Sure , you know that that we got to work through , so I so we't like we want to grow every year . We don't . We're not really good at sitting down and defining what that number is , but year over year we've grown , that's how I feel about it .

Speaker 2 35:40

So there's a big thing right now with private equity coming into buying home services companies , including roofing companies . It's slowed down a little bit and we're not big enough to be attractive to a company like that and it's really not our goal . But I do look through it . Look through the lens of being sellable , and here's why To be sellable , somebody has to be able to buy the business and the business basically run right . So you need systems and you need management and stuff . If Peter and I are the business , it's not . So you need systems and you need management and stuff . If Peter and I are the business , it's not sellable .

Speaker 2 36:14

That's right , and right now , peter and I are the business . Yes , so nobody could come in and buy HW and run it . They'd have to jump in and do exactly what we do . You know which a lot of time we're in the day-to-day grind . So what I'm wanting to do is not because we want to sell , but just because if we are sellable , then we've solved a lot of these other problems . Right , and then the options T and I have options and we have a little bit more freedom . So that's where we're headed .

Speaker 1 36:40

Yeah , I think it's probably about the same time . As far as years in business , I started thinking to myself . I was actually at an event and somebody asked me no-transcript , like what needs to be true in order for it to last 60 years , you know , or indefinitely .

Speaker 2 37:18

So the school bus test . I can't remember which author came up with that . It was Simon Sennett , I mean , it said it to me . Yeah , I've heard the same thing . So like I get nervous if he and I are in the truck together or we're going to an event together or something like that , we're on an airplane going to San Diego for an OS morning . It's like man , if we both go down .

Speaker 1 37:36

So really we've been waiting . Sure , that's all Right , our wives are taking , because the T-Roc figured it out .

Speaker 2 37:42

But the T calls parts . So now , what is a major burden on me ? In a positive and a negative way , it's like we have this whole team around us now . We're up to 20 employees , roughly Roughly 20 . 19 , something like that .

Speaker 3 37:56

They could take the four our wives out , take four out . So we're even roughly 17 . Sure Lives that depend .

Speaker 2 38:02

And those families and they're my families now depend on us every day and that's a tremendous burden . If something were have happened to us , the , the company you know , will fulfill . Yeah , I'm sure they could clobble along and or or another roofer would come in and take our contracts or whatever , I don't know . But all the employees gone really has a place to work exactly , and that's the heart behind solving the problem .

Speaker 1 38:25

So I read a book . I don't mention a lot of books , but when I say I read a book , I never read a book . I listened . I listened to it , but I listened to a book called Clothwork by a guy named Mike Michalowicz and it was actually before I took this RV trip back in 2020 that you were talking about earlier and he talks about the idea of building the business in a way where you can take 30 days off and the reason he says 30 days it makes

Building Systems Beyond the Founders

Speaker 1 38:46

a ton of sense . And he meant 30 days with no work , like I'm not answering a phone call , not returning a text , I'm returning an email . I am invisible for 30 days . And the reason he said 30 days it makes a ton of sense is that a business goes through a full life cycle in 30 days . You know in the same that you would a full year In 30 days . You close new deals , start projects , you finish projects , you collect money , you pay money . Everything generally has to happen in a 30-day cycle for the most part . So if you can get through 30 days , arguably the business can actually get through whatever .

Speaker 1 39:15

I also changed my language and I went from saying I want the business to survive without me and I started saying I want the business to thrive without me . I want to show up and people be like what do you do here ? You know , and I'm not saying we're completely there , but we're really really close to that now , because I probably only spend maybe 20 or 30% of my time in the business at this point and arguably other people could replace that if they really needed to , even on podcasts , like Logan , our new director of growth . He's awesome at podcasts . He could do them without me . I just like to do them . But that about changed my mindset on it and at first I felt a little I don't know like selfish , that I was going to take 30 days off .

Speaker 1 39:57

But he reminds you in the book that it's not just about you having a vacation , because in fact , most entrepreneurs really struggle to take 30 days off . It's actually very hard . Well , not that hard . I'm like let me get back to work Like I like to work .

Speaker 1 40:09

You know I might have a problem , but it's because it's for the good of the team , because now if I'm extremely hit by the bus , there will be some collateral damage of that , but the business could carry on . It is fully capable at this point of operating , I think , for a very long time without me here at all . And part of that's actually really hard , like as you work towards it , because part of it you're like , sometimes you like show up at a thing and you're like what am I even doing here , like you don't even need me anymore . And so you actually have to like kind of redefine your own purpose and your own value , because as entrepreneurs and as business owners , so much of our value is tied up in you know , what we do every day , like as your kids grow up , you're like wait , you don't need me to do that for you .

Speaker 2 40:57

I don't you Like in an office space .

Speaker 1 41:04

When those consultants come in , they'll say exactly what did you say you do around here ? That's the current situation in the US government , but that's what we want Right ?

Speaker 2 41:08

Your teacher will send you an email saying give us five things you did last week .

Speaker 1 41:11

That's right , or it's like when we were on the office , where gosh , who was it ? It was like Jim and Michael , I think , had split the role of manager they're like co-managers and then they got bought out by other companies . She's like so , let me get this straight , two of you do one person's job . I was like what the hell ? And they're like yeah , basically , well , as I'm landing the plane for the show , one of the things I love to hit on a little bit is kind of where we're headed anyway , which is work-life balance . What does that even mean , and I'd love to hear from both of you . What does that even mean to you , number one , and how has that changed through different seasons ? You both got wads , you both got kids , and you're probably both a little bit of workaholics , like I am , and so how has that been defined for you over time , and what does it look like currently for you as life ?

Speaker 2 42:01

I follow the . I think it's Dave Ramsey's philosophy on that and maybe you told me or I heard it at a Ramsey conference is it's ? There is no work like that . It's true , there's no such thing . And when people say that , well , you really don't know what your job is .

Speaker 2 42:15

It's a blender , that's right . Or it's seasons , so I ebb and flow out of seasons where I can . I can knock off at five , or sometimes I'm up there till eight o'clock at night and beck , you gotta cook dinner . I ain't gonna make it , you'll eat without me . I'll see you later , you know . But I try not to make that the norm , that that can't be the norm . You're gonna have other problems , right . So you can . You can ebb and flow there .

Speaker 2 42:39

To me there's not a balance , it's , it's a blender , it's all mixed in together and I just like , I'm trying to be focused on being present where I'm at in that moment . Right , if I'm , I want to leave here after this , I'm going to go coach eight you girls softball and I'm going to be focused on that moment . You know , I think that's the key is being present in the moment . Now , if you are working 60 , 70 hours a week , you're working on Saturday , you're working on Sunday . That , like that can't be sustainable . But even like like Ramsey's reference is really good when that , when it's conference season , it's bananas . You know he wasn't going to the kids events and that was just understood . But when it wasn't conference season , like he was fully involved , you know , but when it wasn't conference season , like he was fully involved , you know . So that's where that's the way I try to approach things is be involved when you're there , don't I don't always do it well me either .

Speaker 1 43:31

It's good , let's say for us , my wife and I .

Speaker 3 43:35

She worked up until this last year and it was tough then because she had a job that was demanding I I didn't have one and that would cause some conflict if , but you know , we're like we've got to do it , it's just got to get done . Sometimes it is what it is and so we've gotten used to that . But a lot like what Caleb's saying is anymore I just try to I do what I have to do and then everything else . If I don't need to do it today , then I won't and I will spend time with family or I try to be present . But , like he said , I don't have a timeframe that I work . I will check my emails in the morning , have coffee at the wife and I'll answer what needs answered .

Speaker 3 44:11

But it's a slow roll for me because I work from the house now , unless I have a meeting to go to or somewhere I have to be , and then it's just understood . But now she doesn't work . So it buys me some flexibility , like today's a bad day . Today I'm working all night . Maybe I didn't get going till nine in the morning , so I try to give back on different sides of the day when it's , when the time is there , so that when the time isn't , I have to do what I got to do , cause now that I'm doing the income , it's like I got to execute , you know , but I still got to make sure she has time , the family has time , so we try to make sure it's on the calendar when the kids' hockey games are their flag football and so that I'm like , okay , I can't overbook here , and you know .

Speaker 2 44:51

What entrepreneurship owning a business does give you if you've played your cards right . So , peter Mitchell , we work fully remote now we don't have an office , so I'd go with my wife to pick the girls up . We got these little electric kites with two seaters on them . We go pick the girls up from the bus stop a lot of days . If you're doing a regular nine-to-five job , you don't get to do that . We're taking this trip out west for 30 days . Now part of my ability to do that is I got a partner that can manage things while I'm gone , sure , manage things while I'm gone , sure , but if you have a regular nine to five , you can't do that . So there are benefits to being an entrepreneur and that . That , that kind of work-like balance , if you will , whatever , if you want to call it that , that you do get to go do some things .

Speaker 2 45:32

I'm coaching my daughter's softball team . My other daughter is in golf . So on days that she's on the course it's it's before the working day is over I'm out there walking the course with her , you know . So now I do get some phone calls about business . You know , guys , on the job , something's gone wrong . Hey , what do you want us to do . I'll take that call while I'm out there , while she's here , or something you know .

Speaker 2 45:53

But it it does afford you some things like that where you can be present with your kids , where , like I'm there in the morning , you know when they're getting ready not not a lot of dads get to do that . They're out by 7 am or something you know . So I work out early , I'm in gen at 6 , home by 7 15 and drinking coffee and making sure they're getting ready and you know dealing with all that . So they're minor . You know , coming up on 11 and 8 , you remember those years where it's like a madhouse in the morning , like somebody's crying , somebody's tears all over the place . They can't find their shoes , nothing matches . You have holes in your jeans . It's like what are you doing with holes in your jeans , you know ? But it's fun to be able to experience that and be present for your kids and we're both getting to experience that and I think it's one of the advantages of entrepreneurship If you do it right and you be present when you need to be present .

Speaker 1 46:44

And at the end of the day , you have earned that because you were willing to endure the hard days in the beginning .

Speaker 2 46:50

Yeah , in the beginning it wasn't like that , right ? No , you know we're on the other side of it , that's right , you know in some ways .

Speaker 1 46:57

But that's why I think , that's why I love doing this show and having these conversations , because I think a lot of times , especially on the Internet , all people show is the glamour of the other side . Yeah , after you've already , like , endured the valleys and not that there's not more valleys ahead , because there's always . If you're on the mountaintop , there's always a valley somewhere . But at the same time , I think people they over glamorize the reality of it and it's like gosh , almost nothing good doesn't come with some hard work .

Speaker 2 47:23

Yeah , you know you can't be watching what you see on Instagram and all that stuff . That is not real business . It's like getting in some relationships with some business owners that are in your field locally and talk to them and you're going to realize real quick they are all having the exact same problems you have and you talk to them to okay , how do you deal with that ? Because I'm in that right now . You know what do you do to help that customer or something like that , and it gives you ideas . It also gives you some insight into what your competition is doing . So we're I got a few guys that are roofers that I'm also friends with and they've been really open with me because they've been doing it for longer about how they handle things and stuff . So talking to those guys and having someone that you can talk to like that is super helpful as well .

Speaker 1 48:06

Yeah , getting people , getting community like that is just huge yeah .

Speaker 3 48:10

I was going to say part of what I do , like I've had some guys ask me , so you go . You know you might leave in the afternoon , go shoot for a little bit or something , but yeah , but also be here till nine o'clock at night if something needs done , Like .

Speaker 3 48:21

But , yeah , but also be here till nine o'clock at night . If something needs done , like you will be paid on a

Work-Life "Blender" and Entrepreneurial Freedom

Speaker 3 48:25

payroll , payroll will get done . You've never , never missed a check , right , and some nights if you were to actually clock in and see when I time taped , time stamped some emails through . Oh , he was . So I give it back when it has to come back and there's just when shit needs done .

Speaker 1 48:42

You gotta get it done . I had a guy one time say to me he said it was on my team many years ago he's like my wife doesn't even know what you do , and I was like for one , that's a real chicken thing to say . Why don't you just say that you don't know what I do ? And number two what I do is make sure you have a paycheck in the bank account every Friday . That's what I do .

Speaker 2 48:58

We've had two employees that are now former employees say that they bought our trucks and , like they , you know . So , peter and I , we started this business for their personal trucks . Right , beat the crap out of the shirt . 300,000 miles , wore them out . They weren't company trucks . We didn't get money back . That's right , that's right . So we are . Finally , we're both with over 300,000 miles on our trucks .

Speaker 2 49:22

We go buy new trucks , right , well , the company's doing better , we can afford it . Sure , we're going to Bose our Ford , actually , yeah , and you buy new trucks . And then you hear an employee say , oh , all my sales bought that truck for you . Well , that didn't last long . Another employee said the same thing and nobody's there for the sleepless nights , the medication for anxieties , the , the ambience , so that you can sleep through the night . Like , well , for me here , for me , when it right , yeah , deal with attorneys and lawsuits . And like when it rains , I mean , I just my anxiety goes to the roof when it rains , because I know new customers are gonna call , but I know we've got some roofs out there with some mistakes . Sure , let's say we put on 200 roofs a year . We don't put on 200 perfect roofs a year and a nail , one nail of the 8,000 that we put on a roof is in the wrong spot and that's a leak .

Speaker 1 50:14

Yeah .

Speaker 2 50:14

Right , so I know we're going to get a call when we get these severe rainstorms , so my anxiety goes to the roof . Those guys don't have to deal with that right now . So it's infuriating when people don't understand . They think you know . They call it like an overnight success . Right , Well , you weren't there for the prior 10 or 15 years . What do you mean ?

Speaker 1 50:34

overnight . That's the other thing Dave Randy says . You bust your tail for 20 years and then you're an overnight success , right ? A couple of things you said that I've loved to call out as we just kind of land the plane , one is just being present in the moment , being where your feet are . There've been plenty of times where my wife has said to me uh , you're here , but you're not really here . And I've been there . That's a that's a tough critique , you know , and it's true , and it's true , it's true , it's true , and it's and it's's . But she also understands the burden of it . All you know and has and has stuck with me for , as of today , 22 years , and so I've really I'm trying to still get better at this . I think it will just be a perpetual effort . I don't think it will ever be an achieved thing of just be where your feet are .

Speaker 1 51:15

The other you talked about , or what y'all really was , this idea of like seasons seasons of business , seasons of life , seasons of family , seasons of business , seasons of life , seasons of family . I always say that the greatest cause of all relational strife , whether it's marriages or friendships or partnerships or clients , is misplaced expectations . If I expect this and you expect that and those things are too far apart . We have a problem , and communication is the bridge that connects those expectations . You all both basically said this , which is you know , there are nights where you go . I just got to stay late . I'm going to be here for however long , and I'm going to do my best to get home when I can and thankfully , like I'm married to somebody who's willing to go , all right , I got it , like you know do what you need to do , but it can't be every night .

Speaker 1 51:55

If it's every night .

Speaker 2 52:03

Yeah , if you're the sole breadwinner at home , I think you are right . Yeah , so I am . Now my wife went part-time as a pharmacist so I'm , you know , same with his wife Sure Retired , if you want to call that . So we're the sole breadwinners . And so now my wife understands , because she hears the conversation . I've worked from home now , so she hears . She's like my goodness , how are you doing so ? Like you know , when you're the sole breadwinner , sometimes you do have to step out of a family thing . I got to deal with this right now because there's a lot of money on the line . If I don't , this could go horribly awry . If I don't deal with this right now Again , time and a place , and hopefully if you're communicating with your wife well , she understands that and if you're not abusing it , because you can't abuse it and everything you have to step out , for you know that's not good either .

Speaker 2 52:46

But you know it's a blender .

Speaker 1 52:49

There's not a lot of that . It needs a little more spinach . It needs a little more ice cream .

Speaker 3 52:52

I've been on vacations where Caleb's called me , said we got to pull the plug on a guy and I had to . I gotta pull off what we're doing and log in and pull the thought or doubt , you know , lock them out of all the things .

Speaker 1 53:03

Well , I said we were going to go 20 or 30 minutes and we're well over that time . That's usually the sign of a good podcast and a good conversation . I talk to you guys all day . It's been awesome to watch you grow and scale and learn and improve over time and struggle through hard days and get better and better and better , and so I'm proud to know you and be a friend and thankful to have you as a client and get to work together . We don't get directly to work as much anymore , but it's been really cool . So thanks for being on the show .

Speaker 2 53:27

Yeah , we're appreciating the partnership with you guys . Thanks for being here , no-transcript .