spk_0:   0:03
Hi. Welcome to building a business that lasts. My name is Joo in, and I'm your host on a quest towards stories, tips and ideas that will help you grow a business without being stressed out, worn out and ready to quit. Each week, I'll interview other business owners who has successfully grown businesses of all types for many years. It's my hope that these conversations will help you build a business that lasts If you work for a business and you've ever wondered moment if I could ever be in charge, I wonder if I could be the president of this company. I think you'll enjoy this interview today. I talked to Chris Leonie. He is the president of Web strategies but didn't start there. He started as an entry level role and worked his way up over multiple years. When he started there, there were 16 members. Now there's 25. They've been in business over 15 years, and we talk about everything from culture to hiring and firing two DNA over experience. You name it. We pretty much went through it. I can't wait to share this interview with Chris right now. Hey, Chris. Thanks for being on the show.

spk_1:   1:11
I am thrilled to be here, Jack.

spk_0:   1:13
So I'm really excited because the last interview that I did on this podcast I had never met the person never talked to him before and didn't really know their business that well. And you and I go way back into their for years. We do very similar things and some just excited to dig into this conversation on business to help other people figure out hopefully how to build a business that

spk_1:   1:34
lasts well. I I hope I can add some value to the listeners today. And for what it's worth, I think it's interesting because we have met face to face maybe once and are the rest of our relationship has happened online S o just the way that our friendship is built over the years being primarily digital. I think it's also an interesting, well aspect to this.

spk_0:   1:55
Yeah, you know what I think is interesting about that, too? Not to sight, ain't it too much? But it's something I always tell people about. Social media in general, is it really is all about relationships, like it's an opportunity to do it. We would normally have done at a networking event years ago. But even less sales e than that. It's just an opportunity, like get to know people and what are they doing them? What are they up to? So that when you do run into somebody in person, you're like, I feel like I know this person, Um and I think that's not how it is.

spk_1:   2:22
It is, and in the same relationship, principles apply online. But I think that's what people get wrongs. They think it's this whole different mediums, so they have to behave differently, and they do things that they would never do in real life. And that's why this relationships never go anywhere, and they don't get the our ally out of it. But if you just stick to the same principles, you're going to be fine.

spk_0:   2:42
Yeah, absolutely. And we may get into some tactical conversation. Since both of us do the same things. I'm sure there'll be side points or it's probably valuable for people to hear. I know a lot of people get stressed out and worn out over marketing, trying to figure out what works and doesn't work, so hopefully we'll find some time to decide Tangent into some of those things. But before we do, let's talk about business as a whole. How long have you been doing what you're doing now? How long is the company been around? And, um, kind of what? What does your start look like? And the role that you're at now?

spk_1:   3:11
Sure. So I am in my 11th year. I should say, I'm in my 12 years. I've been at Web strategies for just over 11 years now. The company has been around for 15 years, and this was my first riel job out of school. I took a year off to play drums in Japan after graduating from school. Figured out that this is what I wanted to do, and we could get into that story we want to. And I thought this was just gonna be kind of my first. You know, my first gig. Get some experience, move on something else. But amazingly, I've been here for over 11 years, started at the ground levels and entry level employee, and I became president three years ago.

spk_0:   3:54
So that's an interesting transition into the role. And I think that'll be unique. A lot of the people that I talked to on the show. Our founders. They started the company from the beginning and you had a little bit of a different pathway along the way, kind of coming into the company. Just first job out of college, trying to figure out what you're going to do. Maybe even still has a lot of us were at that stage of life, and you have kind of grown up to where you are now, which actually is kind of hard to do. Sometimes I think in smaller companies, people sometimes feel like there's not an opportunity for that. There's like a clear or as clear of a ladder I should say is there might be in the corporate environment. So talk about that a little bit. How did that transition happen over time? What did that look like to get to the president's seat where you are now?

spk_1:   4:36
Yeah, so there's a few aspects to it, and I have talked my head. There might be three things. Three points to make here, see if I can remember all three as I get through the first of all you mentioned. You speak to a lot of founders and I think it's important to recognize that a lot of founders their path with circuitous it was not. Not everybody was selling rocks to their neighbors as a kid. And if you didn't do that, you can't run a company, right? I think a lot of people just feel if I didn't have those that story to tell that I'm not really suited for the role of the of the main guy or gal in the company and, you know, But you may have that kind of fire within. You says I want to do this and I felt that all the way back to when I was in school. I work for a small business, and I and I got a taste of what that was like. And from that I was like this. I want to do something in this vein. At some point, I do that and that was validated. Just last week, I was going through one of the books that had a big influence on me when I was in my early twenties, and I'd lend it out to somebody. They give it back. I had not touched it in many, many years, and within it I found a letter that I wrote to myself on the eve of starting this job. Oh, do that in 2008. Yeah, I didn't remember that I had written this letter, but with Innit? I had said, Here's what I know today being to June of 8 2001 of those things was I want to run a company someday. So I knew that back then and I went into this job with that mindset. And actually, I was thinking through that time I did realize that as I was looking at all my opportunities that I had Mel possibilities and this is really on the on the eve of the market crash. So it didn't feel like doom and gloom out there at the time. So it was like, You know, kind of like today you feel like you could make money doing almost anything. One of my one of the possibilities for me was, maybe I'll start my own thing. That was one idea. The other waas work with a smaller at a small business, and then the third was go work at a big ad agency in New York City because I wanted the experience. You know, living in the city and city life in elected stuff. So I always knew deep down that I wanted to do something like this. I didn't necessarily have that original entrepreneur story of, you know, this is always in my d n A. I couldn't do anything, but this

spk_0:   6:57
is

spk_1:   6:57
kind of a mix between I I think I could work for somebody, but I also really enjoy working for myself. I could sit in both those seats, and I think that's fine. And I think that's a lot more normal than people think It is. The third component to this, which is maybe, you know, a lot of what you're asking about in the original question was the path. So it was a small business, and when I came in, we might have been. Six employees were 25 now, but we're primarily a Web development company. I was the first marketing person I had the first marketing role within the company, and it was you know, shortly after that, you know, the founder and CEO decided that we wanted to become more of a marketing company, and he thought I had the chops in the ability to always be the leader in that. So the marketing, you know, what started as a single person role became a department and the department became the entire company, and I was able to grow in that process and with that at that kind of linear rate. So I think that And then also, you know, this founder recognized early on as part of his succession plan because he's in the sixties now. He wanted to find somebody to give the company to. He didn't have on anyone in the family that was prepared to do that because of their individual life situations, and he found me and he and I just hit it off and he's become a second father to me. So I kind of won the lottery in that sense. But I also had to step up and prove I was capable of it. And so the stars aligned. Toa kind of put me where I am today.

spk_0:   8:21
So the role kind of became a department. The department kind of became the company to some extent. Um, what advice would you have toe other people out there who may be listening who have not started a business shit Maybe they're in that early role that you were in because it's a tricky spot when you feel that fire. Um, and this is very different than where I was, so I'm only kind of imagining what it must be like, but you feel that fire to maybe want to run your own thing. But, you know, you need a job right now, you know, and you need some experience. So what advice would you give to that person is maybe sitting in that seat thinking I might want to start my own thing or I'm gonna climb in this company. I'm not sure how that looks. What would you say to

spk_1:   8:56
that person? I mean, that's that's a tough question, because there's, I mean, there's a 1,000,000 ways to answer that in a 1,000,000 things you could say about that. Um, but what I would say, I mean right. The first thing that comes to my mind is there's no shame in working for somebody else. You want to have a business someday. Okay? You don't have to do it now to prove that you're that type of person, all right? And you know, there's there's a lot of really interesting data on this. A lot of people think, Well, if I can't create a $1,000,000,000 company in my twenties on nobody, because that's what suck did. And that's what you know, some of these other founders. The average age of Founders is what, like in there is somewhere in their forties. I think something like that. So what does that mean? It means that you've been working for 20 plus years for somebody else before you took the helm and founded your own company and ran your own company. So you've got a lot of career to live and go through before you get in that seat before your anything close to being an outlier in this world. Okay, so patience is a big part of this. The reality of a lot of people live many career. Ah, a lot of people live many careers before they get into this, and that's totally fine, too. So don't think you need to live someone else's playbook in order to ever live it all.

spk_0:   10:22
Yeah, I think patience is probably one of the most undervalued things right now because we live in such a like instant gratification world. I mean I was make this joke about Netflix because my kids have grown up with it. I've got five little ones, and that's all they've ever really known. We canceled cable really years and years and years ago, and so they've never had, like, a regular TV or you change the channel on whatever's on you watch. We were at a vacation one time. There was a TV there and turn the TV on regular cable, and the show had just was just starting to end like Let's watch another one. I was like, No, there's no there's no next one like the next shows that we don't know what. I don't want another one of that episode like It's not how it works. And they were so confused because they're so used to go. No, I want this now and then Netflix goes. Sure, Here you go. Another episode one of the episode, and that's how we are with everything we can ask. Now, Google or Alexa are Siri for the answer to just about any possible question, and it will just give us the instant answer down to the you know decimal place, Um, and so patients is like I'm seeing that a lot too. It's so my younger team members is that they they just expect to be here right now where you are 12 years in to a company, and it just doesn't happen overnight.

spk_1:   11:37
It doesn't and and, uh, I I see the same. How much of that's environmental? Hard to say. I don't think the environment helps make people more patient. Yeah, I mean, pay people have struggled with the concept of patients. I mean, you could go back and read the most sanction of ancient texts and patients. You know, according to ever the whoever the, you know, guru was of the time preaches patience. The challenge that we have today is that, you know, patients has always been a pain point for people. People always want more sooner. Um, and technology has enabled that right has reduced a lot of pain with very, you know, with the smallest, most minutia things in our daily lives. So it's a muscle that we don't get to flex as much today as we used to. But all that aside, you know, I think is people get into their careers and there's gonna I don't think it's gonna be a Netflix of, you know, becoming the CEO of a company. Because there are art in vast realities that, sir, that. So, you know, the rest of the world could change around that. But if you ever gonna play, if you're gonna play in this play this game, those realities own figure ever gonna change. So it's talking to some way, but not not in terms of the timeline, that's

spk_0:   12:51
yeah, absolutely. Let's talk about some of those hard realities because going from an entry level role to where he started to a president of a company, Um, in that time period and going from six employees to 25 employees, uh, there's gonna be some struggles along the way. There will be some things that you go. Gosh, I'm not equipped for this. I don't know how to deal with this. What were some things? As you think back, you kind of stands out in your head that you go. And that was a really hard season that we had to go through a really hard thing we had to learn. Or that you maybe you had to learn, not even the company as a whole that you've now figured out, you know, maybe a solution to her way around.

spk_1:   13:32
Yeah, I got saved You. I mean, it's been pretty easy the whole time. I can't think of a single. No, look, it's It is I truly believe it is the hardest, like, you know, outside of like, raising little kids is really hard.

spk_0:   13:47
It's the fact

spk_1:   13:48
this is really hard. There are a few things in life that there's not much to compare to

spk_0:   13:53
him. And

spk_1:   13:54
I think this is one of them. And I would say the hardest time in this role was right when I took over as president because there was another layer of difficulty on that sandwich, which was we had just acquired another company. And the day I became president was the day our two teams met for the first time. Oh, okay. Uh, and it was actually announced to my team at the same time that it's taking over as president and that we had acquired another company, uh uh, on, uh, in the founder being, you know, kind of the throw into the fire type that he is.

spk_0:   14:34
Here's the deep and swim. I

spk_1:   14:36
don't even think he was that, by the way, my first expression. Alright, Another layer of this. It was our treat. Our quarterly retreat where we go away for two days and we're just together for two days. Okay, so those are hard enough to manage, like a big group of people and try and keep everyone interested in bringing value in that whole thing, right? What I was doing all these other things on top of that was the single hardest day I ever had. And it was the first day that I had, um but everything that came after that is well, that first year was challenging. Merging a company is a really hard thing to d'oh. Um, and it was probably our lowest prior highest attrition, lowest growth year that we've ever had, which is exactly what everyone wants the first year at the helm bag. But, I mean, some of that was my inexperience. Some of it was just the inherent challenges emerging how it splits out. I'll never know. Maybe I'll get more clarity on that later. But I think one of the things that kept ringing true to me in that first year as I was trying to just trying to get my grip on the on the wheel of this giant vessel. What was a giant vessel in my mind was that it's almost like trying to play chess with pieces that are alive and move around, and they don't always do like normal chest things. So it's like you're the rook. You're supposed to go there and you stay there and you can only move this way and it, like, just wanders into the next box and, like, moves away. It's not supposed to like it's hard enough to play chess its hard enough think, strategic plea and make good strategic decisions that create the outcome you're trying to achieve. But like if people are not following the rules as you go and not following the plan, it's like it becomes stuff that's outside of your control, largely, at least in the day. Today, as some running a company, you can ultimately control that stuff and get rid of people and replace pieces as you need Thio. But that's where it was. It was just that reality of going from being the starting shortstop of a team. Were all I had to worry about was my side of the left side of the diamond to being

spk_0:   16:41
the general

spk_1:   16:42
manager, where you only put the people in place and then at first pitch, it's out of your hands. You have no more control, and everything is just is just the byproduct of all the thought that went into it. But you're not making the actual physical decisions on the field at that time. And that's that's just a big leap that I had to figure out the head of make and that anybody has to make when they get into a role like this. But, you know, eventually,

spk_0:   17:08
how big was the company when, um, like how big was the comfort your company have? It was the other company when you're all merged. When you actually took over, what did that look like? Was it like, six and six or

spk_1:   17:19
14 and six? So were we brought 14. They brought the six so brought us to 20.

spk_0:   17:24
Okay, you know, this is really interesting.

spk_1:   17:26
Well, and there's an important point in there. J is that, you know, I faked. We faced a lot of challenges in that first year, okay? And as I you know, I kind of figured things out on our own and made and implemented the necessary changes that got us over those those humps. What I came to learn in doing more reading and research on this later listening to podcasts talking people run agencies is there is some. There's an inflection point there in that, like low teens 14 to 15 or so people where what you did with fewer people than that will not work with him more than that number. And we had, You know, we figured we got hit in the face with that right? But it's not an uncommon thing, because now you create these layers and and you don't have as much direct contact over what's happening. And people have to learn more thrust most. There's all these factors, and this is where culture starts to become. I think really important because you you can't just be so directly involved in things. People have to act more based off of the values in the intention that's been laid out in front of them.

spk_0:   18:26
Yeah, that's huge. I always say people can wing it to about 10 people in a $1,000,000 anything past that you have to have. You have to have a different plan. Probably a better plan, Probably an actual plan, you know, versus like what a lot of people do to get to where they start out with. And we're not as big as all we have 17 right now and going from 8 to 10 to 12 to 15 even we are now. I felt like each one of those steps had unique challenges along the way that, you know, there were moments from, like, Did I do the right thing. Like, should I have just stayed five? Because it was easy. Like I knew what was going on. I was in full control, like I could just direct everything. And then now it's at a point where that's not true anymore. Like, I have to depend on other people to do things because I can't do it all I'm gonna got I'm in here doing a podcast right now. I don't know what's going out there. Hopefully doing a great job for people, but I can't micromanage it. Um, you you said there that there were necessary necessary changes that had to be made. It a lot of reading and studying kind of consulting with other owners along the way to figure out what to do. What were some of those changes that you ended up putting in place that helped you get through that difficult season?

spk_1:   19:38
I'd say they were there a couple of primary things that we that we learned from that, um, one was we had to become more consistent, the kind of big things you had to become more consistent with the work that we're doing. Yeah, and And so we we diagnosed, um, two reasons why we weren't able to do that. One was a lack of detailed process around what we do now in our world in the marketing world. Special because we do so much as CEO and so much paid search and social advertised, actually, our bread and butter, there's, I mean, hundreds of hours of research and trial and error that have led us to believe there's like this is the right way to do it at this point in time, and that will change your two year. But at this point in time, we know what's going to stack the odds most in our favor. We got to make sure that every client benefits from that. It's it's It's I wouldn't say it's inexcusable, but it's totally unacceptable that you have this massive knowledge and not every client gets it. If that's what they're paying for, that it's such a It's a shame. If they don't well, how do we solve that? Well, we're very clear this This is the process for doing this if we're doing local s CEO, but but but but But but But this is how we do it if we're doing this kind of onsite s you. But this is how we do it now. These are not set in stone, these air going to change. And everybody knows that if they feel like this is not effective anymore, everybody and blow the whistle on that to use a common goal phrase. But but still, but still, the point is, it's a very clear expectation about how it gets done. And that was one. And that's and that's how we make things consistent throughout the organization. From an output point of view, the other big piece was, was around are the industries that we target now in marketing. Uh, you know, marketing is difficult and a lot of marketing doesn't work, and it's the game. It's a game of failure. My baseball is a game of failure, okay? And But you have so many, like boisterous marketing gurus, you know, air quotes. Who talked about it like, Well, if you just hired me or if you just did it this way, Look, it's easy. Stupid, all right? It doesn't have to be comforted. No, it's complicated. Yeah, heart. And a lot of it doesn't work. Okay, so what can we do to kind of shield ourselves from that vulnerability? And one of our solutions was, Well, look, we've figured out the puzzle. It took it all of our successful all of our clients who were the successful ones, what industries air they in. And, you know, look at them objectively, and we'll say, Hey, you know what we do What? We're really good at works really well in this space. So we saw that puzzle, and the client has given us the times to solve that puzzle. All right, well, let's pick up that solution and bring it to others where they have the same problems, right? Versus, you know, trying to trying to solve these issues for all these different industries that have all these different challenges and all these different variables being that puts such a burden on the marketing specialist internally, the analyst or the account manager, because they've worked their butts off to solve the problems of this one client. Now we bring this other client in who's in a totally different space. The other client was being to see this one's be to be the other one sold. Um, you know, you know, was a lawn care company. This one sells machinery. All right, well, you're a marketer. You can sample, you know that your chance of failure goes up significantly. The more problems in the more variables that you're dealing with. So we said, All right, we've got these detailed processes of how to do marketing effectively for this industry. Now let's go out and get more like that, all right? And so we totally built up and invested in our sales model to go out in prospect and find them. We invested in our own marketing so that we could get our own dog food with this and, you know, sell declines, what we're solving for ourselves and and that was probably I'd say that mixed in with tighter roll definition is this is another challenge that you get when you go from maybe 10. People tend to 13 or so where everyone's wearing different hats to your bigger. Now people have to have more specialized roles. So putting more definition around that and developing in training people for those roles so that they could be more consistent, what they're doing it ultimately get better what they're doing. I'd say that was probably the biggest takeaways that came out of that year. 20. Yes, it was 2017 2017 2016. Yeah,

spk_0:   24:18
and that's a lot of stuff that it are not easy problems to solve. They're not. They're not things that you just go. Oh, just flip this switch. And now it's working that way and we're really great. I mean, those are things that took I would imagine a lot of time energy to sort through as you were doing that. Did you have, like, a leadership team internally, that kind of came around around you to help figure that out. Was that you and the founder was just you? What did that look like? You were trying to, like, figure that stuff out.

spk_1:   24:44
Yeah. So, again, it was really me leading for the founder. Kind of moved off, was starting his own consultancy. He would always be there toe if I asked for his opinion and put on something, but was really me. And I think probably one. The mistakes that I made early on in that is I was shouldering a lot of that responsibility to try and figure it out. And so I took a lot of it on, but one of things that I do believe in, I did believe him back then was was inclusivity, especially on some of these problems. Now those two statements kind of contradict each other, so I can clarify a bit. The leadership team was still coming into focus at that time, so I wouldn't say that we had this leadership team that was really going to war together on these problems, right? It started to form organically, kind of like the salamander walking out of the water like analogy like we kind of took shape as we went, but like, that was not what it was in the beginning at all. But I did build teams and said, Hey, this is what we're going to solve together I brought in my specialists who are really responsible for the back end work of what we do. Like some of the back and marketing. I said, Here's what we're trying to dio is what we're trying to solve. And you guys, we're all gonna be the guinea pigs to figure this out together. So super clear on the intent of what we're trying to d'oh! And then, you know, we came together, we laid out a plan. Everybody had their own responsibility. But you know what? The ironic part of this J is that they were not my senior people. In fact, they were probably like my most entry level people. I was working directly with them because my thought was, you know, since we still had so much to define is a company. I had a look at the people where I felt like we're getting the least amount of attention, and I could I could be totally wrong on this. But the time I just felt like if I can start with the people on the ground floor and be very clear about what we're trying to do and involve them in that in that can circulate up. I mean, a lot of people believe in the top down approach, but I don't know why it felt right to me at the time. Let me start on the ground floor, really established this culture established, you know, trust and loyalty among thieves people. And then I can get to the other people later. But at least the other people could hold their own a little bit in the meantime, and, you know, I just couldn't give us much oversight to at the time. So that's how I approached it. I I probably would have been a lot of it differently knowing what I know now. But for some reason it felt compelled to go to that small group and said, Hey, we're going to do this together And I was doing almost exactly the same things that they were doing. I was his hands on stay. Well,

spk_0:   27:11
yeah, I mean, I think figuring out that team along the way is really hard for a lot of people, too. I know. For me, that was one of the biggest struggles was learning how to hire well and ultimate Lauren had a fire. Well, to, um and go, Hey, this isn't the right time anymore. While also feeling like I had this massive responsibility to maintain culture and relationships and and all this kind of stuff, let's talk about, like, building the actual team may have people there leave your people that you have to choose for them to leave, and then you have to go find new people. What are some of the things along the way that you've done that have helped you put the right people in the right seats? And ultimately, how do you decide when you go ahead? This person can't be here anymore. We're gonna have to make a change. What does that look like for you from a decision making standpoint?

spk_1:   28:00
Yes. So I've learned a few truce over the years as it comes to stop it. One. I prioritized DNA over experience. Okay, Because I can I can teach the skills I can give him the experience. I can't teach the DNA. Yeah, so I always park. In fact, every time I've hired for experience and skills coming in, it's almost never worked out. When I hire for DNA those people's tend to thrive. Okay, so that's a truth that I've come to hold pretty tightly. You know, I haven't tested that at some of the higher levels in the company because fortunately, I haven't had to go to the outside to bring high level people in who really do need that experience. But at least on more than mid to entry level rolls, DNA is number one. You know the question is when? When it's time, Um, you know, a lot of I think a lot of empathetic business owners is I think both you and I are. We tend to take too long to do what needs to be done, and there's probably somebody that we're sitting we're thinking about right now. It's like, Yeah, yeah, I could right now, but I got other problems. Studio, you know, eso There's always kind of that. There's always that, like list that I think every business owner has in the mind in their mind. Um, but you know, the problem with that is a lot of it's subjective, right,

spk_0:   29:16
and it's happening.

spk_1:   29:16
Decision has big consequences and and we have to take that responsibility very, very, very seriously and it can't be emotional right now, so you know what? It's always gonna be hard. I think, you know, on the topic of letting people go, I think it's very important to frame it as look, We ultimately want what's best for them, and we want them to have the best career that they can have. And the reality is if we see these problems within our organization and we have done everything that we can to try and make them be successful, you remember we work for them. We got to think of it like that that we

spk_0:   29:51
work for them and it's

spk_1:   29:51
and it's our responsibility to help them be successful. Ultimate leads on them to do what needs to be done. But if we feel like we've given them that chance, we've given them the feedback. We have to make the decision then ultimately we're doing what's in their best interest because

spk_0:   30:03
that's not

spk_1:   30:04
gonna happen. It's not gonna happen here, right? So I think you know, that sounds kind of like a corporate line sometimes, but I think that's I really think that's the truth and

spk_0:   30:14
if you really

spk_1:   30:15
believe that, we've done all the things that we can. Then ultimately, they're gonna look back and be like, Yeah, that was kind of the right decision. And I think they will come to that realization if there is a rational, you know, at all. The other thing, though another element of that Jay is I'm a huge believer in core values

spk_0:   30:32
and the importance

spk_1:   30:33
of core values. And I think a lot of people undervalue their their their power and what they could mean to an organization. And I think they become a great North star for being able to evaluate somebody. And if they are fit for the company, because those air, if you are vocal enough, an intentional enough about those core values being spread throughout everything that you do, then when somebody breaks those tenants, you can point to this and be like, Look, this is what we're about this you know, this does not align with that. And here's Here's why. It's an issue. And here's what needs to change if this is going to be a place for you, you know. So that way it takes you kind of removed adjust, you know, basic, you know, performance numbers and like what were your sales numbers or what We're retention numbers or what? Your client's results to take that out of it and or about. Is this the right fit for use a company and the core values, I think, help fill in some of those gaps that you would otherwise have if you were just looking at more quantitative metrics.

spk_0:   31:29
Yeah, it's interesting because you're number one, which is DNA over experience kind of relates to the third, which is core values, because if they have the right Dina, usually their core values fit two minutes kind of the look of what you're looking for. But to go back to the 2nd 1 which is when? When do you make that decision? I mean, gosh, I think you and I are in total alignment about how we feel about I mean for me like I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate having to let somebody go, because to some extent I feel like I failed them because all along the way I'm going. I can make this person better. I can I can find a way to fit them in. I can find a role I can. I can fix all the things, and I can't At some point there was a team of Rydell likeability for a long time. It was really hard. We're good friends, but it was the right decision for the company after a very long decision making process, and now he's doing great. He started his own thing and he's doing awesome. And so it's like that. It speaks to exactly what you're saying is there's some advice I don't like all the everybody's got their own opinion that they're entitled to it. I think Scary V actually talks about this. He says he hires fast and fires fast. Um, I actually take the OBS for some people say higher fast fires or so say, a higher, slow fire fast. I actually think it should be higher, slow fire slower. And the reason I say that is if I'm the one that decided to put them in that position in the first place, I need to make sure one that it really isn't my fault. Like, is there something that maybe it's not me personally, but the company is not being clear enough with their role. We're not being clear enough with the expectations and give them an opportunity to be nurtured along the way and help get better, because that's one thing I really struggle with is ultimately radical candor, which is a common catch phrase from a book that's out right now. And I am that ruinously empathetic leader sometimes, and I have to work really hard to be more direct because I am. When I am, I see the fruit of it, and I'm like, Oh, man, like I know that I really do care about them But my job is not to be everyone's B f F. It's a lead them, and leading sometimes requires hard decisions often requires our decision. So I just love those three things you said. D never experience, you know, figuring out the right time to fire or let go or whatever. It's gonna be a move on. And then third core values, which is a great Segway, into the next thing that I was gonna be circled back to earlier. You talked about the importance of culture, and I think this is hugely important. But I also think it's one of those words that companies and leaders and books toss around and say, Hey, you gotta have a great culture. So what is culture mean to you? How have your core values help shape that and and And how do you know when you're kind of going? Hey, things the feels like cultural relic. What is it that you look around? Okay, this is doing what it's supposed to be culturally has nothing to do with dollars.

spk_1:   34:17
This has been, ah, a loaded topic for me over the years, and and it's somebody who's more analytical. It's sometimes been hard for me to wrap my head around it, going back to that chessboard analogy of things moving around very organic, right? There's a lot of culture within that, too. It's it's planning the seeds, communicating the intent and then having people think for themselves, right, but think for themselves in a way that's aligned with the kind of company that you want to be. So there's a lot of interesting quotes people have on this culture is what people say about you when you're not in the room

spk_0:   34:53
and things

spk_1:   34:54
like that. What I have just speaking from personal experience here, where I think culture has been most defined for May, and I don't know that I could bottle this into, like, a single sentence necessarily. But it's it's consistent execution of the values of the company

spk_0:   35:14
that's going

spk_1:   35:15
top from top to bottom. Okay, now, how do you do that? You have to be so crystal clear on what those values are. You know, I see them on your wall behind you, and I've seen that wall many times. Now, what I don't know is what you guys do to exercise those values besides talking about besides putting him on a wall. So, you know, for example, our values, our gear, they spelled here a growth essential ism, empathy, accountability and doing what's right here. Why do we have It's still something out because it's easy to remember, right? So that's a good starting point for people. Everybody's gonna know what they are, and I and when new people come in, I spent a lot of time we have exercised on them and I ask people what they represent. We have in our slack channel, we have a gear channel. So any time someone exemplifies one of the core values, if you get called out there and recognizing the channel when we do our quarterly retreats, I'll pick, ah, core value. And we dedicate group exercises in a whole day to that theme. So in two weeks, we have a quarterly retreat. We're gonna take empathy. So we're going to spend the whole day talking about and doing exercises around and you're gonna be is empathy out the eyeballs over these next two days, Right? The quarter before we did essential is, um, and we talked a lot about what was the Matrix like, there's four boxes around urgency, and

spk_0:   36:41
you know what you're talking about.

spk_1:   36:42
But like everything, like, you want to aim for box to activities, right? Right. The not urgent, but most important

spk_0:   36:47
important. Better non urgent, right?

spk_1:   36:49
Yeah. Yeah. Um and so we really focused on essential ism. So it's just so widespread what the's core values are that if if you hold true to those and you behave within those the culture and the behavior and day to day actions, I think should be alive with that with those core values. If they're not, I think it's pretty objective that that person and their actions air not a fit.

spk_0:   37:13
I'm so used to work

spk_1:   37:15
on them, you know, address them and they have a chance to, you know, to fix them, or they're just not a fit for who we are.

spk_0:   37:23
I love those ideas. The slack channel. I'm gonna steal that one, and we're going to do that. And I'm gonna steal the quarterly group exercises here. So thanks for that in foot. That's what I love about doing this show is Tell people I tell my wife when I first started, I was like, You know, the great thing is you talk to other people who have been in business, you know, a long time, and I get to kind of go, Hey, what's working really well for you and some of those things that were in heavy alignment on core values. We That's how we review each other both and peer reviews and top to bottom. And in our we have a document called The D Way. And in their lists, all the core values and not just doesn't just list the core value and even describe it, it actually gives examples of what does this look like on a daily basis? He's wanting to put joy on a wall. It's another to say. What does joy look like in a client meeting. What does it look like when you walk in the door? What does it look like when something bad happens? Um, and we kind of do find those things out. And then what we do from a review standpoint instead of doing performance reviews and all those kind of things which, you know, we still care about those numbers for sure. A lot of areas, but our actual peer reviews we do. They're anonymous ized, and we do it by annually and they're just six core values and asks, based on this description of this core value, does this person usually sometimes were rarely alone with that core value? And it's a really interesting way to kind of see some feedback. And I just got him back and honestly, out of 17 people, maybe 18 17 people. I'm like number 10 of Most Aligned based on the sheer raw score. And I was looking through the feedback and I was like, Yep, that's that's accurate. Yes, I do that, e. I need to work on that. And so it was really helpful for me, but I love that idea of recognizing the positive as well and that selection going. Hey, so and so really question on this core value. Here's what happened. Here's what they did. Um, I love that. So vehicles.

spk_1:   39:13
Yeah, and another cup points on that. You talk about this podcast really helps you like So this is just your big is all selfish place.

spk_0:   39:20
That's right. It is a big display.

spk_1:   39:22
But do these exercises when you put so much emphasis on it as as the leader, you can't hide from them. Yeah, right, cause you're just you're always talking surrounding them. And what culture comes from the top down. Every company is some expression of the person running it. Okay, You know, if you're 10 out of 17 then there's probably a lot of room for not just you, girl, but for the entire company. Because if you're number one on that, that's gonna permeate down of the organization. So it serves several different purposes, I think

spk_0:   39:58
now, thankfully, the good thing was, this was the first time we've done this, and the team was exceptionally well aligned across the board. A matter of fact, we had kind of that there's a certain number that the goal is for nobody to be under that. Nobody was under it. So everybody kind of fell within the standard that we had set, which was exciting to see. But some of the feedback, like one of the negatives, are constructive feedback that I had was J sometimes likes to jump into projects to try and save them, but it doesn't carry them through all the way to the end. And I was like, Mmm, Yep, I do that. I need to stop doing that core

spk_1:   40:29
value with that.

spk_0:   40:30
I don't remember now. It was probably, um is probably quality of the output of the product is most most likely the one that fell under. But, you know, it's that kind of stuff. All right, let me shift gears a bit so we could talk all day. And, uh, ultimately, you know, maybe one or two people might listen to the end of our eight hour conversation, but I do want to kind of round it out a little bit. And there's a couple things I always like to ask, and one of them is really important to me. I don't really like this term, but it's the one everybody is familiar with, and it's work. Life balance, right? You've got a family, you've got friends, you've got other activities and you have a business to run. But if you're not careful, the business will if you allow it to suck every single second of life out of you, especially when you're the one who is ultimately responsible for all the final decisions, if you will. So how what does that even mean to you? Was work life balance mean to you? And how has that changed? Maybe through different seasons of life Toe where you are today.

spk_1:   41:25
Well, it's absolutely changed. Um, and that's just part of, you know, personal development. Right? Um, as you grow. But I think this all begins with self awareness. You gotta understand what you're trying to get out of this one precious life that you get and that hit me between the eyes when I was 29. My first daughter was born in September. And then in October, I was diagnosed with leukemia and, ah, in a very kind of ironic and strange way. If you haven't been sick like that before, it sounds weird. If you have, it makes total sense. It's the greatest gift I've ever been given because when you when you go from thinking that your life is gonna be big, long time line your arms outstretched, that's how much time I have to all of a sudden, it's only like a cz much time that you could put between, like, two fingers like, Oh, my God. You know, like, Sunday night And you're like, What did I do with my weekend

spk_0:   42:23
kind of feeling,

spk_1:   42:24
you know, verses. I have the rest of the year to do what I need to do. So that was a huge wake up call for me. So it all begins with what do you want to get out of this one precious life? Okay. And for me, um, you know, that changed over time because in my twenties, I didn't have a family,

spk_0:   42:39
and

spk_1:   42:40
I got married at 29 had my first child a 29 and my plan had always been bust my tail in my twenties, work six days a week and then get up. You know, to a good velocity and altitude with my career that I could start to, you know, split my time little bit more because my time would be split. Um, and and that's it happened to just play out. It actually works. Go figure. But, um, you know, I I always believed that I want to be, like, a quote family first guy. Hey, Night. And I learned two things about that one. I said it for a long time before I actually meant it, because I would have preferred to be at the office being productive, getting stuff done than sitting at home and not really being productive from an active guy. Liked to get stuff done. And, um but, you know, as kids get older and you really fall in love with them and who they are, where they're becoming, then you get more drawn to that thing. But the other piece that I really learned was family first. I don't like that. It's not that I don't like the phrase, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me because, okay, family first. What does that mean? Does that mean that, like every decision you have to make every day is it's always putting the family first? Well, if you did that in, like, why would you be going to work? Why would you not be at home like making sure your kids got all the attention that they did the best. I think it does it. Look, you gotta make sacrifice. So for me, the family's a priority. On the day to day level, I stopped to make sacrifices if the long term goal is still focused on them and it is right, So my goal is to be able to be as involved and provide as much as possible and maximize the experiences I can have with my Children and my friends, my family. Uh, but to do that right? Money helps that a lot.

spk_0:   44:27
It's so

spk_1:   44:28
bright. Lights from it. I don't I don't want my kids to have student loan debt. Okay, so I was putting money in their accounts before they were born. All right, I I want them to know there's a lot of things that I want for them, and I want to be able experience things with them, and I talk about all right. When you turned 16 you pick anywhere in the world, and you and I will go and do a daddy daughter trip. Just the two of us. You anywhere in the world anywhere. I have money to do that

spk_0:   44:52
because she did so

spk_1:   44:53
like And And, you know, if I could build this business, get to a place where could support my family, allow me to do those things. And that's the ultimate win. And you know, the more I work on myself and learning how to manage people here, and I take those lessons back and I can raise my Children better, then I'm gonna achieve the ultimate outcome, which is still prioritizing my family. Hi. But I have to make the sacrifices along the way. And you have to do it on a daily on a day to day basis sometimes. So I think if you really understand the macro big perspective, but also understand Hey, gut check. This could end any day. So if it does, are you gonna be a peace with the decision you're making every day? It mean if you if you feel like the answer is yes, then you know, balance, balance, whatever. But I think you're making the right decisions for you in your life.

spk_0:   45:40
Yeah, I love that. You know, it's interesting. One of my favorite authors is a guy named Michael hi. It absolutely love. And he talks about this in one of his podcast. He said People ask him about his kind of order, of priority, of things. And he says It's basically like God, then him then his wife and his Children. That is business. Something like that. And people like, Well, wait, you put yourself above your wife and he's like, Well, yes, because if I don't take care of myself, I can't take care of my wife. I don't take care of myself. I can't be there for my

spk_1:   46:09
kids. It's See ya casi It's the oxygen mask on the plane,

spk_0:   46:12
right? It is

spk_1:   46:13
putting on not my kids first. Well, if you're if you can't breathe, you're in trouble, right?

spk_0:   46:19
And so it just that was interesting for me to hear because I thought Oh, yeah, yeah, I guess I do need to do some of that. And, um, like a person that was, like, 10 years ago, that was, like, pretty recent. So, you know, I'm still figuring it out and still learning as we go. So what's next for you? What are you working on now? What do you got? What? Your hopes and dreams of where you're going. I mean, obviously, I'm gonna spill any company secrets, but, you know, just vision. Where do you kind of see yourself when you see the company? Um, a few years out where you were, you headed.

spk_1:   46:47
Well, his first company goes my desires. You can continue to grow. How big? I don't know. I don't have a number in mind, but I think I might get to the point where I'm like, I like where this is. Maybe I'll feel that way. I don't know, but I would like to do more because I still feel like we can do better work, which I think a lot of pride in with more races. Resource is and more people. And so I want to keep climbing up that

spk_0:   47:09
way. Was unfortunate

spk_1:   47:10
to be able to do that. Okay, so we've we've grown every year we've been in business and this year included, So I'm gonna keep doing that now for me. Um, I you know, I do wanna you know, I do want to fully own a business one day. Okay, I know that. Is it web strategies? Is it another one? Time will tell, but You know, I think if you really want to achieve wealth in your life, you gotta have equity, you know, or get really lucky some other way. So, um, I do want that to be part of who I am. I have, you know, some now, but not not, you know, significant amount. So that is kind of the next thing. Whether that's buying into an existing business, whether that's kind of tapping into some the networks, I haven't starting something and, you know, bringing some other founders on or, you know, whatever. I'm involved in startup community. I meant for the start of community in Richmond on the member of CEO community in town, some around a lot of really smart, ambitious, um, you know, risk averse people. And I would like a swing at that in some shape or form. And this has been, you know, look, I'm 12 years in or whatever to my career, and I was describing it some of the other day. I feel like I'm still that jet sitting on the runway

spk_0:   48:25
about to take off. I still feel

spk_1:   48:27
like the best stuff s o. I still feel like success that I think I'm capable of is still beyond what I could imagine right now. And I'm playing that game to get there while enjoying each day as I live it.

spk_0:   48:39
That's the way to do it. I mean, I think that could be a blessing and a curse, that feeling. But it's also, you know, I think it's where you have to be. If you want to grow a company, you have to have that feeling. I always say I'm the least comfortable when I'm the most comfortable. What I mean by that is when I start getting super complacent, I'm missing something. There's something not right. I'm not living up to my full potential and I mean, gosh, I'm 20 years deep in this company and I just feel like we're just like just starting to break the box open. We're not having looked at the president yet. Now I think we got so much left to do and it's really exciting and you guys have grown faster than us because you're 25 now and get all kind of stuff also stuff going. So I really appreciate you taking the time today to kind of share some of those ideas and some of the struggles of real life, because that's ultimately what I want other people to hear in the list of this show is Hey, these things. I'm going through a really hard That's normal people out there. And hey, here's some ways in which they kind of overcame them. So I really appreciate you sharing those stories and peeling back the curtain a little bit. If there was any parting advice that you give when you're talking to somebody who's trying to build a business that lasts, you're over a decade into the business that you're in. Now, what advice would you give them? Um, maybe some we haven't covered. Maybe a follow up with something we already covered. What kind of stands? Out you go. Hey, you know, here's something I wish I had told myself or known 12 years ago.

spk_1:   50:00
I'll go practical on this one versus in the clouds. So I was saying this to somebody the other day who was getting started their business, who was describing themselves as somebody's like, Oh, I like to try new things or like I like that you know something. I like to do a lot of things but sometimes like to do this. Sometimes I like to do that, and I'll do that, too. I said, That's great, but you're gonna have to make a choice. Do you want to just keep doing things that you find enjoyable in the moment, or do you want to actually build a business? Those Those are two different things. Frankly, not that it's not enjoyable to build a business, but you're gonna have to get disciplined and start shaving the junk off. So you're gonna have to make that decision at some point in my intentionally trying to build an actual business that I can scale. Or am I doing? Or do I just want to be able to kind of do what I enjoy doing at that time of year or that month or whatever? Okay, that's one. On the second is the pipeline is life control, your own destiny. A lot of people take pride in being referral businesses, and I get that we were that for a long time. But as somebody who's now built a sales team in a sales machine and a whole bunch of processes around it, I sleep a lot better at night. knowing that my pipeline is life. Um, another one is two on Li cel Onley Sell the things that you're committed to getting better at that kind of become my golden rule because, um, Will Reynolds share this with me? It's one of my favorite lines, which is Customers will remember you for what you do the worst. So our golden rule has become that we only sell the things that we're committed to getting better at related to that. Um, you know, look, I get it when you're in the early days and you're small, you take whatever business you can get, get it. I get the appeal to that, and I get sometimes even the necessity of that. But, uh, it does create a lot of scaling and quality issues, and you can create a lot of bad impressions as a result. So now what point do you do this right away? Or do you have to get up to a certain kind of cruising altitude before you could take this step? I'm not quite sure, but I have found a lot of success doing fewer things more deeply than trying to do too many things. So we really narrowed our offering as a result, and we've been able to thrive and do much better work and get a lot, a lot better word of mouth as a result of that. And then finally, I mentioned this before. But your core values are more important than you think right there, the North star of your company's morality. So especially as you grow and there people coming on fast and people are trying to understand what this place is about and how they need to behaved to do right by the culture and buy the company. Those core values can can spell it out, especially, is that Founder gets the, you know, creates. There's more distance created between the person running the company and everybody else so you don't have direct control. But those core values are the same from the intern all the way up to the CEO. So take him seriously and do every kind of make sure that you keep attention on them. They don't just kind of sit in a document on Google Drive or, you know, they're on Lee written on the wall

spk_0:   53:12
when it is

spk_1:   53:12
that you're actually finding ways to exploit them. as a group as you go, I think that will really instill them.

spk_0:   53:17
Yeah, I think that is a lot of really wise counsel. So if you listen to this, you rewind and listen to one more time. Especially that last part. They're just really good ideas that are really practical that I think I've seen in play in my own business and some things that I still need to make some adjustments on secrets. I really appreciate it. The wisdom. If you want to find you online and kind of learn more about you, your company and what you do, what's the best place for them to go? Where can they find

spk_1:   53:43
you? Yes. Oh, uh n Ironically, I've been off of social media, most social media for quite some time. I still have all my counsel just not as active, active on lengthen. So just search Kriss Leonie Web strategies. That's that's company, um, active on lengthen. Go on Twitter every now and then and then you could find, you know, our website online to get to me that way and not Chrisley only from Oracle, because he's also like the VP of a local. And I got Chris Lee. I got the Chris Leonie Twitter handle before heated whenever oracles doing like some big keynote I get tweeted at from people who think I'm him onstage. Uh, yeah, at Chris. Leonie is my handle on her. And then then I mean there.

spk_0:   54:23
Awesome. Chris, thanks so much for your time today. I think you're gonna be a great asset. Everybody who listens.

spk_1:   54:28
Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Appreciate. Look,

spk_0:   54:30
everybody, I hope this episode has given you some ideas or inspiration that will help you grow your business if you found it helpful and you know somebody else who might benefit from it as well. I would greatly appreciate it if you would take the time to share this with him, maybe on Facebook or Twitter, or linked in or even shoot an email over to a friend with a link to this podcast in it. And if you haven't already, make sure you sign up for email list at building a business that lasts dot com